MS US 51

 
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Clinched Highway Mapping Forum Index -> Old topics
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
admin
Site Admin


Joined: 13 Jul 2008
Posts: 4053
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mississippi's primary US highways are completed. The only bannered US highway I have is Alt US 45 West Point, MS. Are there more coming, or is that the only one in MS?

I overlooked the north piece of US 51, so that is missing for now and will show up in the update after Christmas. Why are there two pieces of US 51 in MS?
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
yakra



Joined: 30 Jul 2008
Posts: 2600
Location: Area Code 207

PostPosted: Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

admin wrote:
I overlooked the north piece of US 51, so that is missing for now and will show up in the update after Christmas. Why are there two pieces of US 51 in MS?


Hm? Two discontinuous pieces? That's not what I see on the map or in the 1989 Route log... has something changed since `89?
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
froggie



Joined: 14 Jul 2008
Posts: 848
Location: Norfolk, VA (when not out to sea)

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is only one bannered US highway in Mississippi. Hence why all you have is ALT US 45.

Per MDOT, there is a gap in US 51 in the Jackson area (and has been for several years). Some maps mistakenly put US 51 along I-55, but according to MDOT that is not the case. This is why there are two pieces of US 51.
_________________
Froggie
http://www.ajfroggie.com
Back to top View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
yakra



Joined: 30 Jul 2008
Posts: 2600
Location: Area Code 207

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

froggie wrote:
Per MDOT, there is a gap in US 51 in the Jackson area (and has been for several years). Some maps mistakenly put US 51 along I-55, but according to MDOT that is not the case. This is why there are two pieces of US 51.


Bizarre. I see Google Maps showing it pretty continuously, heading up State St.
However, did AASHTO clear this change? My intuition (HA!) would say no, that they'd wanna leave it intact to get from LA to WI. In that case, wouldn't it officially exist where it did per AASHTO before the state made the change?

What's the status in the field? Though not officially maintained by the state, is there signage to guide motorists from the one section to the other?
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
froggie



Joined: 14 Jul 2008
Posts: 848
Location: Norfolk, VA (when not out to sea)

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

US 51 has not followed State St through the central part of Jackson for at least a decade. I'm not sure how long before that it was dropped...it wasn't until 1998 (when I transferred to Meridian) that I started following Mississippi highways in earnest.

Going back through my MDOT map collection, I had to go back to the mid-70s before I found something that clearly showed US 51 going through downtown on State St. And you have to go back to the 50s to find a MDOT map that shows US 51 taking State St between Woodrow Wilson Blvd and County Line Rd (south of today's I-55/I-220 junction).

Status in the field is that you have signage coming north on I-55 (or east on I-20) showing US 51 going onto the freeway spur (off of I-55) that leads onto State St. Then, just north of where State St/US 51 crosses under US 80, there's a "State Maintenance Ends" sign. There is no other signage for US 51 until you get to County Line Rd. And that's ONLY if you're following the northbound I-55 frontage road approaching County Line Rd. Otherwise, there's no signage until you get to where State St crosses under I-55 between County Line Rd and I-220.

This map, if you zoom into the Jackson area, is the best thing I could find on the Internet to show how MDOT considers the situation. And as best as I can tell, it's existed this way for over 30 years.
_________________
Froggie
http://www.ajfroggie.com
Back to top View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
admin
Site Admin


Joined: 13 Jul 2008
Posts: 4053
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The gap is bizarre alright. It reminds me of the "vanishing" of US highways in Yellowstone NP, or some of the Michigan Interstate business routes where signage stinks and part of them are locally maintained.
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
yakra



Joined: 30 Jul 2008
Posts: 2600
Location: Area Code 207

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hm. The filename "StateDesignatedStateMaintained.pdf" sent me a brief glimmer of hope - maybe something is state (or otherwise) designated but simply locally maintained? But no -- then it would be shown with a red line, according to the legend.
Rats.

Froggie: You did say this was the best thing you could find on the net to explain the situation... But nonetheless, is there anything else MDOT may have online, say route logs or definitions, that may shed light on the subject?

Tim: Can having the US routes in Yellowstone mapped be considered setting a precedent?

Maybe, if it came to it, laboriously compute a route based on the accumulative mileage in the AASHTO log?

ITEM! Dig this: http://www.gomdot.com/Divisions/IntermodalPlanning/Resources/Maps/pdf/CountyHighwayMaps/Hinds.pdf
There's a {51} shield shown on State St, at what looks like a little bit N of the High St intersection.
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
admin
Site Admin


Joined: 13 Jul 2008
Posts: 4053
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've split this topic off from the "last states" topic.

Like yakra, I'm bothered by a gap in a US highway and did some searching in hopes of learning it isn't so, even though I trust Froggie's research and didn't expect to find much that is different from his assessment. I took for granted that US highways were usually state-maintained.

Is it wrong to say that the US 51 designation in MS is continuous but the maintenance isn't?

Are there other US highways that are not state-maintained outside of Yellowstone, similar to MS US 51?
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
froggie



Joined: 14 Jul 2008
Posts: 848
Location: Norfolk, VA (when not out to sea)

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Is it wrong to say that the US 51 designation in MS is continuous but the maintenance isn't?


Indeed that is wrong to say. Both the designation and the maintenance are discontinuous...hence why I sent you two files.

My reply to Yakra in the original ("last states") thread didn't show up here, so here it is below:

Quote:
Froggie: You did say this was the best thing you could find on the net to explain the situation... But nonetheless, is there anything else MDOT may have online, say route logs or definitions, that may shed light on the subject?


No. The route definitions in their "selected statistics" document are generally vague (and also reflect the legislative definitions). Detailed route logs are nonexistant. MDOT has been notoriously lacking in online information...something I've hounded them on several times over the years (for starters, consider that they were amongst the LAST of the state DOTs to finally post a webpage). The information I have on the gap is from E-mail correspondence with MDOT several years ago.

Quote:
ITEM! Dig this: http://www.gomdot.com/Divisions/IntermodalPlanning/Resources/Maps/pdf/CountyHighwayMaps/Hinds.pdf
There's a {51} shield shown on State St, at what looks like a little bit N of the High St intersection.


Hate to say this, but MDOT's city/county cartography...shall I say...leaves a lot to be desired (I've been dealing with it for 10 years). Amongst other errors I can point out with that map: the I-20 interchange at Norrell Rd is missing...and that interchange has been around since the early 2000s.

Basically, that State Designated-State Maintained map is about as good as MDOT gets for mapping. If it's not on there, it doesn't exist on the state highway system, regardless of whether it's state or locally maintained.

Bottom line...and the point I've been trying to make all along...is that US 51 has a gap in Jackson, MS.
_________________
Froggie
http://www.ajfroggie.com
Back to top View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
yakra



Joined: 30 Jul 2008
Posts: 2600
Location: Area Code 207

PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

admin wrote:
Like yakra, I'm bothered by a gap in a US highway and did some searching in hopes of learning it isn't so, even though I trust Froggie's research and didn't expect to find much that is different from his assessment. I took for granted that US highways were usually state-maintained.

Right. And this is even something that used to exist. Rather a different case from I-95 in Trenton.

I am bothered by this, and want to find a way to fill in the gap... again, remember we have 20 et al in Yellowstone filled in in the browser.
My argument for finding a legitimate routing: state DOTs aren't our only source/authority for routing info. There's also the route as seen by AASHTO. After all, they're the ones who sign off on route changes. I say we can refer to AASHTO in such a case, and fill in the route as it was last known by them. The key is just to determine what it was.

Quote:
Is it wrong to say that the US 51 designation in MS is continuous but the maintenance isn't?

I defer to Froggie here. (What's in a name^h^h^h^h designation?)

Quote:
Are there other US highways that are not state-maintained outside of Yellowstone, similar to MS US 51?

In Maine, state highways within an Urban Compact municipality are maintained by the municipality. (more info...)
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
froggie



Joined: 14 Jul 2008
Posts: 848
Location: Norfolk, VA (when not out to sea)

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got an E-mail chain going with MDOT on this right now. It's becoming even more confusing.

The latest I got (which may be a case of conflicting information within MDOT): US 51 follows I-55 through Jackson. But the little freeway spur south of downtown between I-20/55 and State St (just north of US 80) is also "US 51".

Still trying to get it sorted out.
_________________
Froggie
http://www.ajfroggie.com
Back to top View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
admin
Site Admin


Joined: 13 Jul 2008
Posts: 4053
Location: Maryland

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can think of one similar case where a highway and a connecting spur share the same designation: Business US 71 near Fayetteville, Arkansas.

The spur route is shown in this project as Spur US 71:
http://cmap.m-plex.com/int/usban/sw/ar.us071sprfay.ym.html
(It could have been Spur Business US 71, but since it connected to US 71 as well, the second banner was dropped for simplicity.)

If that answer from MDOT ends up being their "final" answer, make a single long file for US 51 and a short one for a Spur US 51.
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
froggie



Joined: 14 Jul 2008
Posts: 848
Location: Norfolk, VA (when not out to sea)

PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Final answer from MDOT is to use AASHTO's routing, which has the route following I-55 through Jackson.

So the question now is whether to treat the freeway spur as an unofficial "Spur US 51" or treat it as an extended exit ramp (with a couple interchanges and traffic signals of its own). Right now I'm inclined to consider it a spur route.
_________________
Froggie
http://www.ajfroggie.com
Back to top View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
froggie



Joined: 14 Jul 2008
Posts: 848
Location: Norfolk, VA (when not out to sea)

PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm getting caught in a spiral of circular logic now on this one. In effect, there are two US 51's in Jackson, even though the same MDOT contact told me "there is only one US 51". Yet they consider US 51 to run both along I-55 through Jackson and along the freeway spur to State St.

So my solution was to route a "continuous" US 51 along I-55 through Jackson, and mark the freeway spur as an unofficial "SPUR US 51".
_________________
Froggie
http://www.ajfroggie.com
Back to top View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
rlee



Joined: 29 Jan 2009
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The situation is similar to the short roadway between the I-20/US 49 interchange (Exit 47) and the US 80/MS 468 intersection. The road is signed as US 49 southbound and To US 80 northbound, but it is not US 49. It is simply a roadway within the Interstate 20 right-of-way. State Street between US 80 and I-20 is a longer version of that roadway; that is, it is a roadway within the Interstate 20 right-of-way. In this case, the interchange area is just a bit bigger than usual. I think State Street is better designated it as a very long ramp.
Back to top View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Clinched Highway Mapping Forum Index -> Old topics All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


2005 Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group

Free Web Hosting | File Hosting | Photo Gallery | Matrimonial


Powered by PhpBB.BizHat.com, setup your forum now!
For Support, visit Forums.BizHat.com